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Bbc World : “The World Debate”

Debate on climate change 27.01. 2007

(Part 1)

Now on BBC World – a special edition of “The World Debate” from Davos chaired by Nik Gowing.

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: Welcome to the Swiss ski resort of Davos where the traditional white snow cover at the moment masks the true story of increasingly freaky weather here and right around the world. This years’ World Economic Forum of top business, political and other leaders, including many non-governmental organisations has been overwhelmed be the question: “How to respond to President Bush’s confirmation this week?” There is, what he calls “a serious challenge now of climate change”. I have to say “at last and far too late” – with the complaint by many here in Davos! Wherever you live at the moment there is now this urgent concern about climate change, this common anxiety about the apparent impact of climate change on all of us. The island in the Bay of Bengal which once was once had ten thousand people living on it, which is now being lost to water, we have the temperatures in the Northeast United States up to 22-25 degrees – people are sunbathing when there should be a winter freeze. In the Gulf this week it’s been barely 6 degrees. There is then a sudden momentum for action! But who is leading it? Is it the governments, the business and politicians from the top down, or is it actually the public who now’s pressing from bottom up? That’s what we want to explore here. A new BBC poll says that only one in five – 21% think governments take climate change and environmental issues seriously enough. So, who’ s going to force that change? That is our BBC Debate here in Davos.

Dan Esty is what we call our challenger. And then, you’ll be direct to the Yale Centre for Environment Law and Policy.

You used to work at the US Environmental Protection Agency, you have produced a new book “Green to Gold”, between the highlights to dilemmas – for many in business so just a bestseller at the moment. We gonna keep coming back to you as a kind of reality checker. We want to push and prove, and challenge if necessary, though.

But I want to ask all of you: “What’s your perception of where the pressure is now coming from for climate change?” with this new momentum picking up. Dan, you’ll be the first.

Dan Esty, Yale Centre for Environmental Law and Policy: Well, I think we do see a public that has been pressing for action. Not only in Europe, frankly, but in the United States as well. Our polls have shown, seventy plus percent now, approaching eighty percent, of the public say “it’s time for action”. As certainly there are some uncertainties here but not enough to allow us to step back and fail to move forward. So, I think, the public is demanding and, I think, what’s interesting in what you see here in Davos is the business community or at least a broad bit of the business community has also decided – it’s time for action.

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: How dramatic in your view is there a pick up on this, particularly in the United States where the perception is, frankly, that the attitude is being very lagged?

Dan Esty, Yale Centre for Environmental Law and Policy: I think, what you’ve seen is a growing set of interests across the society and now, this past week, President Bush has acknowledged the seriousness, as you mentioned, what even, perhaps is more important – a set of a very big business leaders, top companies – from GE to Dupont, to Alcala had stood up and said that time for mandatory standards has come. And I think that is starting to change the dynamic and I think beyond that what you see is there’s a set of business leaders, who believe now that there are opportunities here. One of the great things about the capitalist economic system is that people make money when they respond to society’s demands. And the society is now stepping up and saying: “We want alternative energy, we want various ways of energy efficiency, we want to try out a different energy future, and there’s gonna be money be made serving those purposes”.

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: Well, lets turn to business. Klaus Kleinfeld, President and Chief Executive of Siemens, you employ 4 hundred and 75 thousand people. What’s you view of where the pressure is coming on you as a corporation and for you as a business?

Klaus Kleinfeld, President and CEO of Siemens: Well, I think the [unintelligible] are really coming from many ways. One is the public perception and what we see, you gave a couple of examples, and those things cannot be overlooked and those are not overlooked. We have debates internally, we have debates with the family – all of those are factors but, as you said, I mean, we are in a very luxurious position here. Our portfolio is the portfolio that helps to cope with those issues. When we talk about energy efficiency, a lot of the things that we are producing are exactly in that area.

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: Where are you feeling the pressure is coming from there, because everyone’s talking about an extraordinary pick up now on momentum?

Klaus Kleinfeld, President and CEO, Siemens: Well, I think, it’s the combination and, as you know from system dynamics, when things come together, I mean, there’s suddenly a peak point and the threshold that’s overcome. I think that’s evident that everybody knows that we get to work now!

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: David Miliband, the British Environment Secretary, you came up here on the train carrying your own bags which has impressed many people. What’s your view of where the pressure is coming from?

David Miliband, the British Environment Secretary: Well, lets say two things about this. First of all, I think, the science is driving this. The science in me view is completely unambiguous. And I’ve been the Environment Secretary for several months. And I have to say: I’ve learnt in that seven months that it isn’t just an issue for our grandchildren. This is actually an issue for our time and my generation. I’m 41, I will live to see the consequences. But I do want to say one other thing. Because if you talk, as I did recently in India to NGOs, to government and to people on the street, they’re saying: “Hang on, we’ve got three hundred and fifty million people living in this country on less then a dollar a day”. And I think the central dilemma for us is how we ensure that countries like India are able to choose a low carbon path of development in tandem with industrialised countries, like mine and the United States, decarbonising the energy if transport is so dangerous both for the environment and for the economy.

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: Let me pick up immediately with Vikram Akula. You are social entrepreneur of the year, given that award back at the beginning of December. You’re into Microfinance, you’ve been in business much of your life but you’re trying to do it for those who don’t have much money. How much are they pressing on these climate changes when they want development?

Vikram K. Akula, CEO, SKS Microfinance, India: So, first in terms of the awareness let’s be very clear – there is certainly awareness of the issue but I don’t think there’s the sense of the urgency. The same BBC survey that you mentioned said that only half the people are willing to reduce their material standards of living in order to reduce climate change. So, that’s one thing to play lip service and be aware of it and it’s another thing to actually change one’s standard of living to actually make a difference in terms of climate change. Prom the prospective of the poor people that I work with, climate change is not something that’s in the future – it affects them now. There are serious weather changes, whether those be floods or droughts that affect poor people today, so they very much see the need to do something urgently. And maybe we don’t understand at a level of poverty how best to do that but there’s clearly a sense that impacts on climate change have being felt today by poor people.

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: Ian Conn, Managing Director, Group Managing Director of BP, what’s your perception as the energy giant, which is, some would say, creating many of the problems?

Ian Conn, Group Managing Director, BP: Well, firstly to the issue. The thing that’s driving the urgency for us is the recognition that, well, what we are about here is trying to stabilise concentrations of CO² someway off and, actually, it could take a hundred years. But critical thing that most people now understand is that you have to take action in the next ten years to guarantee a higher degree of probability of getting there. That’s what driving us. Our commitment as an energy company is very simple. Economic growth is fundamental for the world. Energy is fundamental to that. If energy companies can’t be part of the solution and not part of the problem, we’ll have failed.

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: Saxby Chamblis, Senator from Georgia, you voted against the bill in 2003, which would’ve moved America forward. You’ve been in Greenland with John McCain, you’ve come back saying: “Something’s changing”. Have you changed your view? Are you as a politician, you’ve just […] arrived from Washington by plane, are you changing your view that something dreadful could be about to happen; therefore politically you are being pressed by the public?

Saxby Chambliss, Republican Senator for Georgia, USA: Well, I haven’t changed my opinion but it is true that on a trip to Greenland, I got to see first end the fact that something is going on out there. Whether it’s something that we need to be totally alarmed about, whether it’s nature taking its course – I don’t know. We had some extensive conversations with the scientists out there. We’ve been working on this issue for 25 years or more. And they cannot give us a definitive answer of what was attributable to the global warming said versus what’s attributable to the natural said relative to what’s happening in that particular part of the world.

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: Are you feeling public pressure on you as a Senator and you’re part-funded by the utilities in Georgia. But are you beginning to change your mind because you have to, because the [politic …] the public are pushing you now, and saying “We’re not gonna put up with this much longer because of what we see happening”?

Saxby Chambliss, Republican Senator for Georgia, USA: I don’t know that I feel pressure coming from my *constituence or in a particular groups but what I do see is that as a Senator, as a policymaker – this is an area where we have got to become more educated and we have got to talk with our *constituence more about that then we ever had before because clearly there are some changes taking place in the atmosphere.

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: Lets get another view from Congress Senator Maria Cantwell. You’ve just arrived from Washington State up in the Northwest of the US. How much pressure are you feeling from the public, who is leading this debate? Is this the public, is it the government, is it the politicians, or is it business?

Maria Cantwell, Democratic Senator, Washington State, USA: Well, in the Northwest it’s a different perspective, I think, probably, then Georgia and it’s certainly a consensus when the Congress failed to ratify the Kyoto Treaty, our Mayor of Seattle, Greg Nickels, took it upon himself to not only sign an agreement and agree to reduce in the greenhouse emissions for Seattle but he got three hundred mayors from cities all across America to also agree. So, what you’re seeing is a grass-roots movement getting people below the federal level to also participate in this debate. Now, in the Northwest we also have businesses, who are interested in the transfer of that technology of energy efficiency to save other countries – China, India – from making the same mistakes on CO² emissions that we have made. And so, why can’t we look at China and India as an opportunity, as a market for clean U.S. technology?

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: Now, I have to say, we don’t’ want to focus just on the United Sates here. But everyone here in Davos has been saying, the Unites States has got to take the lead. Dan Esty, you’ve hearing the politicians.

Dan Esty, Yale Centre for Environmental Law and Policy: Well, I think, we do have something changing. And I think, one of the things that the Senator points out is that you have to recognize that the U.S. has lots of layers of policymaking. And while the Federal Government hasn’t stepped up yet and just starting to act, the governors are taking the lead, including Republican governors like Governor Schwarzenegger in California.

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: We gonna come on that in one moment.

Dan Esty, Yale Centre for Environmental Law and Policy: So, you you’ve got, I think, a real change going on and I think, the public is driving it across the country and there is an increasing likelihood that you gonna see a number of politicians moving on this issue including some in Washington, who may have been taken a lesson from the November election results.

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: Let’s get to another person, who monitors this, Lester Brown of the Earth Policy Institute. Do you think there’s a tipping point now, Lester Brown?

Lester R. Brown, Earth Policy Institute: There is a tipping point but the problem is: we don’t reword the turning point on climate change years and at one point it becomes irreversible.

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: But on public mood?

Lester R. Brown, Earth Policy Institute: On public mood – without question! Eye sets in the States of real rise in concern about the future and a large part of that concern is about climate change. I mean, we see that in traffic to our website, for example. So, in many different ways now we see, as they are mentioned, Republican governors taking action. One of the, lesser known ones is Governor Rick Perry of Texas, a Republican, who’s organizing a seven thousand megawatt wind farm, for example. Seven thousand megawatts, if you know electricity, it is not only large for renewable, that’s large for any source of energy. It’s an enormous step forward on the renewable front.

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: Right! Let me go to Uday Khemka. You represent the foundation, your Khemka Foundation, which is concerned about the dispossessed, for those, who are struggling in India. Again, I want to highlight this rift, if you like, between the developed world and the perceptions there and the developing world. How do you see that?

Uday Khemka, Khemka Philanthropic Foundation (India): I think it is very important to understand why in a developing country like India we haven’t seen the sort of political action that we’ve seen elsewhere. One of the core reasons is the reason David highlighted, that despite reform policies that make us grow fast, there are hundreds of millions of people still living in poverty. And, therefore, it’s framed in terms of development and equity, which is correct. However, secondly, it’s a question of communicating that this is a core part of development. And thirdly, and most importantly from when the real process began, we didn’t see – this is our issue. We saw it as a northern issue being imposed upon us. You think about it, you think about what a month in failure would mean to the Punjab – the breadbasket of India where a month in failure would mean a complete wiping out of the food resources of the subcontinent – hundreds of millions of people affected, or a tsunami-like affected – Bangladesh and the coastal regions of India, or the drying up of the gangues because of deglaciation. It becomes a core development challenge; it becomes our issue – not an issue someone else is hoisting upon us.

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: Right! Before we pick up on the California example, which is crucial in the United States, and we have speaker of the Californian Assembly here. We talk about the public. We’re all members of the public. Many of us, though, are not members of the next generation or the younger generation. We have some, who are here representing them like Simon Moss from Australia. You are the Chief Operating Officer for the Oaktree Foundation in Melbourne, where after you had snow in the summer, you’ve got horrendous fires at the moment and you gonna live in this Australia in the future. What is your view of who is pushing this?

Simon Moss, Oaktree Foundation, Australia: I think, in Australia the view has been very clear. The government have filed two acts at the last couple of years. It’s been business, it’s been the non-profit sector and it’s been the public, particularly of last six months, who’ve seen this having a real effect in their lives right now. The sort of restrictions that we’ve got on water usage are now open, the sort of reality that we see when it comes to snow on Christmas day and fires [unintelligible] after that means that something is going very, very wrong. But the challenge is that in the place like Australia we don’t’ always understand what we need to do and we are looking for someone not just to say we need to take urgent action and talk about it but to action and do something.

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: Right! Let’s move on to California in the United States where sadly the Governor couldn’t join us because he broke his leg skiing, Governor Schwarzenegger . We have the speaker of the California Assembly.

Reply from the hall: … it was a melting snow path [laughter].

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: Was it? At least he was enjoying the snow, which is good! Of course, it’s fascinating – he’s a Republican Governor, you’re a Democrat Speaker of an Assembly and you were pressured by the lights of John Doerr as a venture capitalist into passing this act last year. Fundamental! How much do you think you are driving now a new model for others to follow and why have you taken that path?

Fabian Nunez, Speaker, California State Assembly: I think, California in essence listened to the call of the people of our entire country where polls show us, as being discussed here, close to eighty percent of Americans believe that not only global warming is a danger to us but that we can do something about it and that the politicians need to act. And as a young person myself I decided to offer this legislation last year because I found it prudent, that this was not simply an altruistic approach to a problem but that in reality we needed to reduce our carbon fitment in California – a state that is conceivably the fourteenth largest emitter of carbon emissions around the world and so, even though California has some of the most progressive environmental legislation in the books, we found it prudent to follow the call of the people, the scientific opinions which are overwhelming and the evidence is clear. The change in the weather patterns that people are experiencing in California, what we had – a hundred longer days during the summer months that were over a hundred degrees Fahrenheit. We saw over a hundred and thirty people died just last year because of that. And people attribute that to global warming and they also see that we have a fundamental responsibility as America to act and to do something right away to begin to curb greenhouse emissions and global warming. And we think that what we did in California is significant work that can reduce our carbon emissions by the year twenty-twenty to the nineteen-ninety levels. That translates to somewhere in the neighbourhood of a hundred and seventy four million metric tons through a mandate that we’ve just passed with the support of our Republican Governor.

Nick Gowing, the BBC presenter: John Doerr, you actively lobbied as a venture capitalist, which many would see...

Fabian Nunez, Speaker, California State Assembly: He lobbied me a number of times as well... [laughter]